The former England rugby star on being terrified of birds, drinking for two days after winning the World Cup and being bullied by Austin Healey
Hello, is that Will? Hi, yes, I’m just out in the garden, Small Talk. I’ve been making snowmen and I’ve got freezing cold hands. I’m going in before I get covered in snow by my five-year-old.
Sounds like you’re having fun … It’s been a long time since I’ve been snowed in. Maybe I haven’t paid my subs or something but the gritters haven’t been out round here.
What did Greenwood Jr get for Christmas then? We finally relented and got him a Nintendo DS.
His first computer? Well he plays on my computer all the time. He loves Ben 10, Tom and Jerry and he’s into YouTube too. It’s quite frightening considering I first played a ZX Spectrum probably in about 1984 as a 12-year-old. All I remember was playing Daley Thompson’s Decathlon and the tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, jump. But, I was no good at the javelin. I couldn’t quite get 45 degrees.
It was a tricky one all right. Are there rules on how much TV and computer he can watch? [Hesitating] Yeah, but it comes more from the wife. The missus is very much against him watching things like Star Wars and Harry Potter for a few more years. He likes Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, Up and other Disney Pixar films.
What’s your favourite children’s film then? The Jungle Book. It’s one of the great ones. When you first get an England cap you have to sing a song on the bus. I’m absolutely tone deaf and rubbish at lyrics and the only thing I could think of was I’m The King of the Swingers.
So how did that go down on the England team bus? I imagine some of the songs are a bit cruder? Well, on the whole, you don’t have a chance for improvisation. You stand up, you sing; you get booed immediately, whether you’re good enough to win X Factor or you sound like someone from Emmerdale. You’re stuffed really. That’s not the purpose really, the purpose is to stand up and basically just humiliate yourself as quickly as possible and get back down again and hope you get another cap and you can boo someone else.
What was the musical taste like in the England team in your day? In the World Cup side there would be fights over what to listen to. Dorian West and the old gang wanted the Clash and the Jam, stuff that was more Johnno’s era. And then the youngsters were all into, I think he was called 50 Cent then. He still might be called 50 Cent, or Puff Daddy, or he might have changed his name again. So, it tended to be that we had to bargain and to go alternate songs. If you landed on this planet from a distance you’d think: “Crikey, what a slightly odd mix.”
In an old Small Talk with Austin Healey he said he used to hide your lucky socks on tour … He did a lot of things! It was basically bullying [laughs]. Basically bullying but, basically small-man syndrome at 5ft 8in and going bald.
You wouldn’t let a little man like that bully you? Well, the problem with Aus is that you have to be able to, literally, go the whole way or just not bother, because he really doesn’t know when to stop. It was just a constant battle.
Healey also said that he used to bathe his lucky shorts in holy water. We’re still trying to work out whether that was just him trying to wind us up. He just talks shit. Has always talked shit, will always talk shit.
Your nickname is Shaggy. Is that a Scooby Doo reference? Yeah, that was started when I went to university in Durham. I was Stick-Man when I first started school, well, I was Twig-Man then it became Stick-Man when I became a little bit bigger. To Jason Leonard and Austin I’m just plain old Big Nose. Shaggy refers to my inability to grow a beard, my curtains haircut in the mid-to-late 80s and early 90s, my physique and my cowardliness. I was a perfect match.
Surely you’re not that cowardly? You, an England rugby player … No, complete and utter coward. No matter how much you try and persuade people they go: ‘Yeah yeah, whatever, you’re just lying.’ So, you go: ‘OK, don’t say I didn’t warn you. If we ever find ourselves in a dangerous situation and I run away; don’t say I didn’t try and tell you!’
Are there things that you’re scared of? Oh, terrified of things. I couldn’t ever go into the jungle because of the thought of eating or sleeping when you’re near spiders or creepy crawlies.
So, when your son finds a spider in his room, you go running to your wife? Well, I’m terrified of birds. I once had to ring Mark Cueto because there was a blue tit in my house. I was hiding in the garden, then when he finally got it out I dived on the floor and started going: ‘My eyes! My eyes!’ I’m convinced to this day it was a raven, he swears it was a blue tit. The worst thing was, when he chased it upstairs into the bedroom the bird shat on my pillow. He knew. I’ve been stuck in a hotel room at Lucknam Park, one of the most gorgeous hotels in the world – we love going – and a bird got into the room. That was just panic, I handed my wife off and hid and slept in the bath for two hours.
That’s quite an odd phobia … However, if I was outside now – which I am – and a bird landed on my knee; no problem. Birds in a room, it’s just not happening for me. In a confined space where they’ve got nowhere to go and I think their default action would be to peck my eyes out.
It’s possible … Unlikely, I know. But fears, on the whole, tend to be irrational.
Have you ever drunk a yard of ale through a sock? I’ve done a variety of things back at Durham before becoming a professional rugby player. But someone who now works for Heineken and drinks responsibly should never, ever repeat such a story. The old university stuff really, you know …
So, you couldn’t tell us how many cans you drank after winning the World Cup? That’s a very good question. Some people are useful at drinking just because of their sheer size, but I’ve never been that great. Again, it goes back to my Stick Man legs, I’ve nowhere to put it. However, when you win a World Cup it’s fascinating, because when you go out and you think: ‘Well, I’ll have to go to bed about 2am or 3am at this rate,’ and literally two days later you’re still going. And, you know what, I didn’t even feel like I had been drinking. It was just such a euphoric high with your great mates, having achieved something you’d always wanted to do. If you were to put in a room what was drunk, no one would believe you. I suppose it’s like that adrenaline rush of strength that you get, that ability to go out and have a good time and not even notice the hours drifting past. The Cargo Bar in Darling Harbour is just one of those special places that I’ll probably never go back to again, but if I walked past it as a 75 year-old I would be able to close my eyes and see Lawrence Dallaglio on the DJ deck, Tindall on the dance floor. You know, guys tucked away sharing a quiet pint, lads who like a dance floor, lads who didn’t like a dance floor. It’s one of those ‘go-to’ moments in your head.
Were there any guys who did like a dance floor but just couldn’t dance? On that occasion, they gave it a go. Which is very rare. Only when winning the World Cup could some of those lads be on the dance floor.
Who’s the worst dancer in the World Cup winning team? It’s clearly not [Matt] Dawson, is it?
When you won the World Cup, did you worry that the only way was down? I read one quote that I thought was quite apt – “Why bother running for the bus when you’ve already caught it?” – but I genuinely don’t think our intensity dropped. You’ve got to remember that after that World Cup guys were back on a rugby field seven days later. Fourteen days later we were playing in a Heineken Cup game which is as close to international rugby as you can get. A full season, a Six Nations and then a tour to Australia and New Zealand. In hindsight, it is the most ridiculous schedule to put players through. And, hence, no wonder brilliant players of the calibre of [Jonny] Wilkinson, Tindall, [Phil] Vickery and Richard Hill had so many injuries in the following few years. I don’t think you realise until you come back from a World Cup the physical intensity. It goes back to that adrenaline surge I was talking about. You get through a World Cup because the last thing you want to do is miss it. Because you knew that team was special. You knew it was going to achieve something. So your mind – that unbelievable tool – blanks a lot of pain. I think a lot of bodies, genuinely, just went into shut down after that World Cup because we’d worked so hard for it.
What do you to find that next adrenaline surge after you’ve already won a World Cup? There’s no doubt that one still searches for that buzz and that’s why the guys love doing the Strictly Come Dancing stuff and the ice skating, and that’s why they’re then so competitive and they do so well. But I’ve often been terrified of TV. As a kid, my old man would make me stand up and do things and it was like ‘Oh my god, please don’t make me do it.’ But, the adrenaline rush of going live is where I find my butterflies. I’ve also got involved with other rugby projects, I’ve just finished filming a programme called The School of Hard Knocks, which is out in February. We took underprivileged, unemployed offenders from east London and in the space of 10 weeks we turned them into a rugby team. So, I was doing three or four days a week with these guys; tracking them down – some of them were homeless – and making sure they turned up for training. Boys who you would have walked across the street to avoid, perhaps on day one, by the end of it they were lads that I was absolutely delighted to call my pal. It’s very difficult to recreate the high you experienced on a sporting field but it doesn’t stop you trying. That’s why [James] Cracknell swims to Gibraltar. That’s why Josh Lewsey is climbing Everest next year. It’s why Lawrence Dallaglio is cycling from Rome to Paris to Cardiff to Dublin to Edinburgh, to raise money for Sport Relief. You will never be able to turn off those competitive juices. It is a tap that will drip forever.
OK on to the more important stuff. Cheese or Chocolate? Oh my god, chocolate. If you opened my ice cream cabinet there would be a tub and a half of chocolate magnum ice creams, there will be Dairy Milk, there will be Cadbury’s, there will be Mars Bars tucked away. While my life was devoted to eating the right things nutritionally when playing for England, sneaking chunky Kit Kats into the hotel was still a piece of great pride.
What is your favourite book? I’m just nearing the end of the second book in the Millennium trilogy by Stieg Larsson. Meanwhile my wife has had a total leave of absence with the house-keeping duties as she’s discovered Twilight. She’s read all four books and apparently Stephanie Meyer has started writing the book as though it was from the eyes of Edward so she’s now reading that online. My go-to book throughout my life has been the Flashman series by George MacDonald Fraser. I’ve read them three or four times. I see the coward and the cat in Flashman that he runs away with all these medals and he’s basically a coward and I, sort of, see a great deal of symmetry.
Last one then, can you tell us a joke? Oh, crikey. Two parrots on a perch, one says: ‘Can you smell fish?’
Small Talk feel like it’s missed the punchline. Parrots on a perch? … Oh, we’ve just worked it out. That’s poor on our part. No, it’s very, very, very poor on my part. But, it’s the best I can do.
We appreciate the effort. You’re lucky to be able to talk to me today because I’ve had gammon flu the past two or three days. It started off as swine flu but I went to the doctors and he cured me [Laughs].
Two for the price of one, that’s great. We’ll let you go now, Will. Will do, you take it easy. Nice to chat. Have a great weekend.
Will Greenwood is a Heineken ambassador. Heineken are proud to be celebrating the 15th anniversary of the Heineken Cup, the best club rugby competition in the world. www.heinekenrugby.co.uk